I just wanted to continue an old conversation on the Prosperity Message that we had a couple of weeks ago. If you haven’t read it please do. http://www.xanga.com/derekwilson24/610914563/the-prosperity-message-ii.html
I wanted to ask you all a couple of questions.
Is it o.k. to pay your tithes (10% of your income) to the church, if it is not going to help feed, clothe, and shelter the orphan, the widow, the poor, the homeless, and the helpless? (Since that is what it is supposed to be used for) I mean if all of it just goes to buildings and grounds, bills, the pastor and the staff is that o.k?
Comments (40)
I think so.. i know friends who give 5% to the church and 5% to some organization. But I tell you that as a minister – sometimes it is a little odd to think that when I tithe am I giving myself money in a way?? lol
Daniel (doubledb)
I don’t believe that tithes are for the new testament church. The original idea of tithing was for the Jews of the other tribes to support the Levitical priesthood. If we are told we must tithe does this follow the idea of a cheerful giver?
I do believe that we should give to our churches willingly, have elders of honor that will see that the money is properly applied as to Gods leading. I don’t think the pastor should ever be involved with the finances.
Doubledb, Do you know of anyone in your family, a friend maybe, or even someone in your town who just can’t make their bills, or lost a job, maybe someone is homeless, or just simply less fortunate than you? Someone that is a widow, or an orphan. Why wouldn’t you want to give that money, “The Tithe” (God’s Money) to the people he biblically intended it to go to.
What kind of system does your church have in place to help those people, or does it at all?
If your money is just going for that–it’s a business, not a church. As a member (if that is what is happening) one must see if they can get it changed. I believe God still intends for us to give our 10% and over if we can–but it must be used for the right purposes which MUST include the homeless, poor, widows, etc.
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:8-12
The reason that they brought the tithe (which was not money by the way) into the storehouse was so that there could be meat on the table, to take care of the needy and less fortunate! There are some tremendous promises of blessing for doing this also.
And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:14-17
This one is simple in my opinion, and it is in red letters which means Jesus is speaking. Give unto God what is Gods.
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40
I have also said this before, the law is not passed away, it has just been fullfilled in Jesus. If we love God and our neighbors as ourselves we will fullfill the law also. We are called to be good stewards of what God has given us and that means taking care of others, outside the church.
I think that these scripures prove that tithing is for the New Testament Church, just not the way we generally see it in our culture, and in the American church. It is true, God does love a cheerful giver but that does not mean we are not supposed to tithe, in my opinion. I don’t want to rob God.
Jesus, in the new testament also told the Pharasees that they were right to tithe. Also if we really want to follow the example of the NEW Testament, we must look at Acts 2 where everyone sold their excess (everything we own is God’s) and gave it to help anyone in need.
ok ok, its a lot – but I think it worth reading and a pretty good response
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To answer your questions – most churches have something in place (at least in my denomination). The southern baptist and/or BGCT (Baptist General Convention of Texas) has in place programs that give to both local and forign missions – as well – a lot of churches do local and forgin missions with church members too. There has seemed to be some people who have decided to cut down giving on the denominational level to focus on thier local church or so that they can decide exactly where the money goes.
My church personally here in town – gives money to a mission/misisonaries/preachers/seminaries in India. We have kinda adopted the country and have misisonaries come back and forth and tell us abou the progress they are making (and some of us go visit there as well). My church I was at in Houston was a little more focused on local missions and reaching the people within a 5-mile radius – it was called “operation share the light. When the flood hit Houston in 2001 we turned our gym into a food and basic need place for about a week or two until all the items ran out. We still keep a food pantry to feed the community around us. I dont think either is wrong.. in fact, I think it is good for a church to have a central vision or purpose – but not to forget the whole and to also take care of its parts.
If I personally, feel like I should give money to an organization I may or may not consider it my tithe or maybe an extra donation or “sacrifice”. We are too picky anyway with our money and I woudl suggest reading some of Richard J. Foster’s books dealing with the subject of SIMPLICITY (“Celebration of Discipline”, “Freedom of Simplicity”, and “Money,Sex, and Power”). It is sorta “new idea” to give only half or even none in some cases of ones tithe to the church. I think giving none is the wrong way to go, especially since the ministers are essentially in a non-profit organization. I mean, besides mega-churches, most ministers might get paid as much as a teacher but usually from what I have heard they get far less and many struggle with spouses, school, younger kids, and taking care of parents, along with thier churches. Some pastor may get a good benefit package but the other ministers are doubtful to get such a package.
I think I am answering your questions.. lol, at least I hope so. I think the situation is very complex and does not lend an easy answers. If you want “Black and White” I have none to give. I think different people have different means of money, some people are greedy and some are not, some are in churches that give to the needy already and some may not… I think a lot of it depends on the situationb and requires much discernment and wisdom in how one should tithe and use thier finances. But I think this is also another area of life that Christians should and could learn to sacrifice more than they are… The sad truth for me and for others who live berely getting by(in a manner of speaking).. is: Should we keep our money instead of giving sacrificially(10% or more) by trying to be wise and save OR should we give out money (of which we dont really have) and trust God to provide? I think tithing would be much easier for me if I had tons of money – then I would feel secure even after giving my 10%. But what about those people who seem to need all they make – it is so hard for them to give 10%. I think giving what we can, sacrificially and wisely, is the best answer – not some sorta Christian “law on tithing”(which is kinda what 10% tithe has now become), especially since 10% is never even mentioned in the New Testament that I know of. Sacrifice is spoken of much more, to the extend of people selling thier lands to help others. The Book of acts has a lot to say about this, the story of Barnabas at the end of Acts 4 and the story of Annanias and Saphira in the beggining of Acts 5 tell of a great deal.
Daniel (doubledb)
I think I would have to refer back to Derek’s original question, talking about grounds and buildings and such, and say, if a church didn’t spend the tithes it received on things like gyms, it could pay it’s pastors a comfortable wage AND give to the homeless, orphan, and widow. And it may be a new idea in the Western world in the last 500 years to not give all of your tithe to the church (alot of the reason for “separation of church and state” by the founding fathers is because of the government collection in european countries of the tithe, often used to build elaborate cathedrals), but if we’re less concerned with church tradition than with what was originally taught by the apostles in the early days of the church, it’s pretty clear that giving was to support those in need, and to pay pastors who chose to accept it b/c they were full time pastors (Paul was sometimes supported by congregations and sometimes worked as a tentmaker), but not for buildings, utilities, grounds, etc. I absolutely believe we should give, and generously, but I don’t think that was the question Derek was posing. There are people in great need around the world, orphans, widows, disease stricken people living in despicable conditions, and should we say, no, I can’t give to you because all that I can give is going to pay for my church’s building?
For me; I have a problem when a Church has no outreach, but they are sitting on$20,000.00 C.D. and will not fund Evangelist outreach to the community, let alone feeding, clothing the poor, and caring for the widows and orphins. God’s blessings are to flow. When we hord them: they will stop. Give as unto the :Lord. Use wisdom, and be a good stewert of God’s money. Bro. Cliff Stafford
I am currently Church less & stopped going to the Church I was going to because the Pastor would preach for 3 hours about how we weren’t giving enough & that only certain people were keeping the Church clean. The people that are cleaning the Church are people who are retired, those with jobs or a large family & live farther away weren’t able to help clean the Church. The people who do clean the Church are there till past midnight some nights & it is a very small Church. 50 members at most. I had asked for prayer in regards to my financial situation as my work has been very slow & I am currently 2 1/2 months behind on my rent. I was also without food as well. The Church members including the Pastor wife who is with the prayer team knew of this & the prayer team did pray for me which I do appreciate as I know their are some very anointed members of the Church. Their was one night when a member of the Church got up & apologized to the Pastor for only giving $200 & ended up giving $2,000. The Pastor also would praise those who gave hundreds of dollars but would tell the rest of the congregation that our $5, 10, etc wasn’t doing him any good & how he will be getting retirement from California & Canada. He would tell Us how he was sending money over seas to Missions he is involved with but here I was sitting in Church tithing 10% of what little I did have & hungry. I hope I am not sounding shallow here, it is not my intent to do so. He would tell Us how the Lord put it on his heart that we were not giving enough. I prayed on the situation & one night he was telling Us about Lot & his wife & Lot wife looking back & turning into a pillar of salt & I felt that the Lord was telling me loud & clear to leave & not turn back around. I do know how Blessed I am not to be homeless right now. :sunny:
Everyone has made great points about tithing. I would ask where are we told to build huge churches and purchase large lots of land? Do we need these things, landscaping, high dollar video screens, sprinkler systems, etc? Are these modern ideas? Should there even be one person who is the “preacher” who’s only job is to preach while everyone else sits and listens? If a pastor preaches what he should about sin and repentance of sin a lot of folks will leave therefore reducing tithes. If this is his only source of income he will be forced to compromise his messages for the sake of money right? If a church loses tithes due to teachings that do not set well with the crowd then how do they pay for the building? Something must give, what do you all think that will be? A compromised message to soothe the masses who pay the bills. You can not serve both God and Mammon.
This is a topic that I have been doing a lot of thinking about lately. Right now we don’t have a home church, so I tithe to different missions and Christian organizations trying to reach people for Christ. Somehow, I feel a lot better about giving to the Hiway 80 Rescue Mission than to a church which is already huge, as great as that church may be at reaching people.
But my dad tells me giving to your home church is Scriptural. He hasn’t shown me the passage yet, so I can’t tell you where it is. But basically, I just don’t know, to be honest….
Daniel is right about the SBC giving to missions a lot. I, myself, am a member of the SBC denomination.
I believe you are a wise young man. Good for you. Why not start a house church? Tithe 10% if you want and put it in to a bank account that can be drawn upon to help the needy with the things they need. Don’t use it for making yourselves comfortable. Maybe take 5% and use it for missions? Let everyone be involved in the church preaching, teaching and so on. Since when did preaching become a career and where did youth ministers and worship leaders come from? I’m a musician, I’ll lead sing alongs for you. I don’t need a 5 figure salary to use my God given talents.
One other thing, why does a tithe have to be money? Chanda said that all things are given to us from the Lord which is absolutely true. Where does it say a tithe is money only? Can Daniel be said to not be tithing if he is giving 10% of his time to study and preach the Word? Or say Chanda cooks for some families or shops for a mother who can’t walk due to a surgery? Or we the men help families repair a home or automobile? Jesusfreaksue is behind on her rent due to unseen problems, the church prayer warriors pray for her but do nothing? That is crap guys! I cannot remember the verse but it speaks to this exactly. Why do you pray for some one and wish them well when it is within you to help? or some thing like that. I will try to find it so that I can give it exactly. One last thing and I will shut up, Daniel why should we look to Richard Foster for Gods answers?
“Daniel why should we look to Richard Foster for Gods answers?”
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Really the answer would require another post… but in short, I think that it is good to read Christian thinkers both past and present. Not that we dismiss the Bible – but sometimes to help us understand and apply it its good tro read books. Sometimes it helps to hear other voices (kinda what we do when we listne to preachers too). Richard J. Foster has written the best, and mostly only that I could find, book on the subject of living SIMPLY or “SIMPLICITY”(and giving sacrificially). I just think its a good book (and hes a good author) that I have used for a research paper I did over the spititual disicpline of SIMPLICITY that I write for a paper in seminary about a year ago.
Daniel (doubledb)
It is necessary. Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s. It is going for a good cause – the continuation of the church.
Daniel, I understand some reading of others and listening to preachers. I don’t understand a Christain endorsing this:
From Celebration of Discipline
“We should all without shame enroll as apprentices in the school of contemplative prayer” 1978 edition
Even people, “who have yet to turn their lives over to Jesus Christ – can and should practice them.” (Spiritual disciplines)
In Celabration Of Discipline Foster makes several recommendations of books that are “helpful” to read. He heartily endorses Tilden Edward’s book, Spiritual Friend. Here are some quotes from that book: page 18 and 19 – “This mystical stream [contemplative prayer and other monastic traditions] is the Western bridge to Far Eastern spirituality [and to that of Sufis Moslems]; This exchange, together with the more popular Eastern impact in the West through transcendental meditation, Hatha Yoga, the martial arts, and through many available courses on Eastern religions in universities, has aided a recent rediscovery of Christian apophatic mystical tradition.”
Sorry gettin of topic my bad.
Ok rebel186, staying off topic with you for a moment, here’s a link to a review of Foster’s book. http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=219
He is a quaker, and while quakers are nice and all, I don’t agree with them on some theological points. I really don’t think a book besides the Bible is necessary to understand simple living; who could have lived more simply than Jesus and his disciples? I mean. let’s just go back to Acts 2:42-47.
But back on topic, while tithing is not the defining issue in Christianity certainly, a church’s budget says alot about it, and can help in deciding if it’s the place for you. Jesus said in Luke 12, “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is there your heart will be also.” Look at where a church’s budget is allocated and you’ll see alot about where its heart is. While I am a big supporter of house churches, for many reasons, (community, fellowship, accountability, giving, evangelism, etc.) I think it’s ok if a church has a building to meet in, or books for Sunday school. But it’s about priorities. A warehouse with folding chairs, great. A $10 million dollar building with stained glass, sound systems, etc., not necessary, and that money could have gone to help those in need. When a church starts to say, “Well we can’t afford to support our sister church in Africa anymore b/c we hired some new staff people and we’re putting in some new plasma tvs in the lobby” then you know the priorities are out of sorts and the hearts of the people in charge are not with their neighbors or their brothers and sisters in Christ.
Amen!
:yes: I agree.
wow, so we can only ever agree with someone who we completely agree with on everything forever? I read John Piper but do not agree with predestination – but he does emphasize THE SUPREMACY OF GOD IN ALL THINGS. As far as Richard J. Foster – he is not meaning a literal school of prayer (ITS A METAPHOR!).. plus, there are always going to be reviews like that, taking things out of context… especially I have seen this with book by Christian authors because they have Christians who do not agre with them and also non-believers who mostly think they are dumb Christians. But if the Bible is all we should read then WHY ARE YOU BLOGGING? Why read what all of us think? Why discuss it? I do this because it is a way for Christians (and people in general) to have comminity and think seriously about our faith and what it means. I dont have to agree with everything the blog owner ever says because i read and comment in your blog. I do not equate Christian books with the Bible -but I do think that they are helpful. And actually, by disregaring books you are in some ways acting “Quaker” in a manner. When did Christianity get so narrow-minded that not only can we not read “secular” books but we also cannot read Christian books either because they are not the Bible. I do not agree.. I think God is mug bigger than that and can work first through scipture, then thorugh the local church (holy Spirit), and then though other Christinas around us – our brothers and sister in Christ – some of who write books, some make movie, some do missions, some creat worhip music, others create Christians music in general, ect.
rant done.
Sorry if i sound rash or harsh. I just dont think God would find it sinful for me to read about what other Christians think about faith, what some have even died for. If its not sinful then what? Is merely not benefical? Is it because its not the Bible? Nor do I think, that God finds every single secular book sinful because its not the Bible. Should I never watch tv or listen to musci either because its not the Bible… sorry, I am ranting again. I just do not see it. And I take everything as a grain of salt (and encourage other to do so as well). No one book is going to change my Christian walk or “infect” me with a false gospel anyways.. thats why God gave me a mind of my own.
Plus there is one main difference is that I have actually read the book but you havent…And I never saw anything anti-God or Anti-Christianity in it. Actually my mentor for my Intro to Ministry class suggested it my freshman year for college (who was a youth minister himself for like 20 years). But then again.. my review isnt on Amazon.com yet.. lol
Daniel (dobuledb)
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in
need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in
him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but
with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:17-18
Thanks to Derek & everyone here for such a great topic. :fun:
Check this out, this will put the whole thing in perspective for you.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tithing.html
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40
”When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46
-If we don’t help others, we are gonna be in big trouble with God. Also see the Rich man and Lazarus (Which is not a parable by the way).
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Matthew 5:42
-This is a biggie, don’t turn away him that asks something of you away, giving to them is the same as giving to the Lord.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:42-47
-I believe that this is God’s vision for the New Testament church, quite different from what we see today eh?
I don’t think I was saying we can’t read or watch anything secular. Aristotle was not a Christian, but he was blessed with a brilliant mind so I read him. I was just responding to your comment that Foster’s book was the best and only book you had found on living simply, and I was simply saying that the Bible has quite alot to say about the subject. ( The best way to learn simplicity, though is to just live overseas for awhile:) I have alot of friends who are missionaries, and many others that are just not from the US, and in my conversations with them (one missionary friend said, “you know what I really miss – peanut butter:) I’ve found that sleeping on the ground, bathing in water that smells worse than you, and eating the same thing three meals a day really lets you see how simply one can live if one chooses.) I think God gives us tremendous freedom to read and discuss ideas from many sources, and minds to sort through them with discernment. I find though that there are many things which I will read and analyze, but few that I will recommend to others b/c of this.
Daniel, I don’t want to hijack Derek’s blog but be careful being arrogant and smug just because some folks like me aren’t in ministry or in cemetary. I am quite capable and willing to hear others views and discern what is Godly and what isn’t. Richard Foster is not in my lowly high school educated mind. To each his own. You and your mentor’s opinion’s are no more valid than mine or anyone else’s. I can pretty much guarantee you I know a thing or two about evil that you ain’t never imagined in school bro. Lets try not to be so condescending ‘k?
WOW! I am so surprised to here someone make this point! Funny too in a way…….. ask Chanda about my mom and tithes…….. She wrote a whole book on why it’s not relevant today!
well, it’s been interesting reading everone’s thoughts lately. my wife and i for a long time felt we were all alone in how we felt about the whole issue. guess we’re not. i am not a tactful man. i do not go out of my way to say things in just the right way so as to not hurt someone’s feelings or not upset them. i am horrible with timing, and am very rough around the edges. also, i am sarcastic as all get out. so, i will just say what i need to the only way i know how.
daniel, good for you that you had the opportunity to study God’s word for several years. for some reason, you appear to talk like you have some kind of authority and all of us mere mortals are lujcky to be having a dialog with someone so wise as yourself. i can think of no greater Christian institution than seminary that turns our attention away from God and inwards towards methods, traditions, and a general emphasis on self. “how dare you say such things!” some of you might be thinking. o.k., let’s look at it this way. Jesus fulfilled the law. period. end of story. he did it all. all rules, laws, traditions, methods, etc. and he did them perfectly. so, what have we done? we have taken the church and unknowingly tried to nullify that by slowly imposing an old covenant model. we say with our mouths that we believe in the new covenant, but how do buildings, budgets, traditions and the like have anything to do with our relationship to Christ. so many christians will tell you that god does not live in the church. ok, so whay do those same individuals have such an emotional attatchment to their church building? why do they pour so much money into it? either because in some way they do really believe that god lives there, or they are so fucused on themselves that they want a comfortable place to come to on sunday morning?
budgets. your money is where your heart is. so, why does the average church in America spend 83%of it’s budget in house? show me in scripture (after Christ left, for that is when he fulfilled the law and established the new covenant) where the church needed money to support itself. ah, there’s that word again, self. that’s such a pesky word. it just creeps up on you. anyway, does anyone else hate cliches? i do. when something becomes cliche, it’s a sort of tradition. and when something becomes a tradition, the focus then turns to that which we are doing, and not as much about what we are doing it for. (in the case for the argument that “we don’t focus on traditions, we use methods”, disconnect yourself from your attatchment to your ways of doing things for 24 hours and take that time to really look at whether those are god-centered or more about what you want or are comfortable with) if any of us are really honest with God, we will constantly continue to search our hearts for anything that is even slightly distracting us from focusing on anything other than Him.
and this brings me back to my point about seminary. in of itself, it’s a great thing. however, all too often, it is a place where the institutinization of Christ is manufactured, packaged, and shipped all over the world at an alarming rate. seminary is where well meaning young men and women are unknowingly taught to spread institution instead of relationship. this will probably upset you, daniel, but i really don’t care. i have worked with others just likie yourself over and over. you are fresh out of school, have lots of ideas, and are on fire to spread the truth and the light around the world. you remind me of this guy i met once. i am a landscape designer. this one 21 year old had just gotten out of school, and thought he had the answeres and knew what was going on because, after all, he had been to school. (how many times have you let all of us know that you went to seminary?) after a few months, i saw him again. he wasn’t even doing landscape design anymore! he was disillusioned because things weren’t like what he learned in school. i like what the previous commentator said about sin that ain’t never dreamed of in school. right on. do not for an instant believe that seminary is in any way real life.
as far as tithing goes, the teachings on it by the modern church push the line of haresey.(did i spell that right?) the church is in sin on that issue, and should repent. so, why don’t they? because too many pastors careers would be ruined. oops! when did ministry become a carrer?
a little follow-up. some of you might get really pissed at me for this, so… sorry. daniel, you are the embodiment of the arrogant, legallistic baptist preacher that every movie and television show makes fun of. the next time you are so condescending and communicate to the rest of us how much you know, think twice. man’s wisdom , even your seminary-trained noggin’, is as foolishness to God. the pride that radiates from your entries makes me sick to my stomach. be careful, daniel. god is a jealous god. without knowing it, when you speak as you do, you are possibly raising yourself to a level that god is not fond of humans being at. you are young, and obviously sound as though you have been sheltered for a large part of your life. life is going to hit you like a mack truck. when it does, you will not be able to rely on your training, your mentor, or your wisom.
Jameshughes24, spoken with wisdom like a man who lives his walk daily in the real world. Daniel you and the others are hearing from God through years of wisdom. He is trying to refine you. Pay heed! All this fire y’all possess plays well with the choir but it will not play in the world. Let the fire burn on the inside or else it will be quickly extinguished. Derek and everyone else would do well to read Love Grove’s response to Derek it contains a lit of wisdom. Yes he is condescending but you can learn from what he says.
rebe1186 is correct when he started with the tithe is an O.T. rule to support the priesthood. Under the revelation knowledge of the N.T. the very breath of life comes from God. i visit a church with the prosperity dominant theme and go back to work at a homeless shelter and turn away people because we’re full! Being a Gospel Mission, it is a job requirement to share the Gospel, John 3:10-21, with everyone. Also, being in the para-ministry, how am i to look at tithing?
Bless you for the work that you do – it must be incredibly hard but rewarding also. That is a difficult question, and I don’t know, since in the NT they didn’t have paraministry like they have today, so there’s not really an example to go off. I don’t know, I mean if we look to the OT, the Levites didn’t tithe, they were supported by the tithes and offerings, but since it’s different for us now, I don’t know. One church I was a part of in Virginia, aside from their support of local needy people, gave 15% of everything to other ministries – parachurch groups, churches in other countries, etc, but I still don’t think that applies to you either. Hmmmm, I’m clueless.
I don’t know how other churches deal with this, but Moravians usually make a very strong distinction between serving God and serving the church. Because tithing is a gift to God, giving to ministries other than supporting the church is quite acceptable. In fact, I was quite touched by my congregation last year; we’re a small church, and even though we’re always struggling financially, they kept up their tradition of giving the Christmas offering to a local ministry–some $900.
Personally, I understand the message of prosperity theology, but I have some concerns about it. I agree that God always wants us to live full, rich lives–and always is ready to provide us with blessings beyond our imaginations! But when prosperity theology becomes a kind of quid pro quo (hey God, I’ll worship you, but you gotta make me rich!), to me that makes God into a kind of idol of our own making. It’s first commandment stuff!
Finally, I respect those people who can figure out how to tithe when they’re facing financial problems. But I would hate to think that people were tithing, and yet letting their children go hungry. To be honest, I haven’t met anyone who was really in that position–but hey, it could happen!
MY RESONSES
“Sorry. daniel, you are the embodiment of the arrogant, legallistic baptist preacher that every movie and television show makes fun of. the next time you are so condescending and communicate to the rest of us how much you know, think twice. man’s wisdom , even your seminary-trained noggin’, is as foolishness to God.” – jameshughes24
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And thats the paradox of education. Everyone says they want ministers to know the gospel so they can teach and then when they get it – the other hald get on them for saying they are “educated”… lol, oh the irony of life and ministry. Why do you think I am in a minsitry position, its so I cna learn from both expereince and education. How do we ever learn if we do not educate ourself thorugh both books of others expereince and our own.
“you will not be able to rely on your training, your mentor, or your wisom”
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I depend on Christ and his Word first, before anything. I do not think I should feel bad for trying to better myself… and I never said I was better or “God”, I just that we cannot put God into a box… God works thorugh the church in many different ways. –
However, all too often, it is a place where the institutinization of Christ is manufactured, packaged, and shipped all over the world at an alarming rate. seminary is where well meaning young men and women are unknowingly taught to spread institution instead of relationship. this will probably upset you, daniel, but i really don’t care. i have worked with others just likie yourself over and over. you are fresh out of school, have lots of ideas, and are on fire to spread the truth and the light around the world. you remind me of this guy i met once. i am a landscape designer. this one 21 year old had just gotten out of school, and thought he had the answeres and knew what was going on because, after all, he had been to school.” – jameshughes24
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I am sorry, but sterotyping me as any other seminarian student is.. well, a sterotype.. lol. Just as we cannot put God in a box, you should not judge a book by its cover. I am more than just seminary student… above all I am a servant of God and a brother in Christ…. Sure there are those who think they have all the answers… I do not think I have all the answers but I do think that I should have the freedom to express my opinions in community and discussion. You can choose to reject or accept it – doesnt bother me any which way. I am just sharing.
“ameshughes24, spoken with wisdom like a man who lives his walk daily in the real world. Daniel you and the others are hearing from God through years of wisdom. He is trying to refine you. Pay heed! All this fire y’all possess plays well with the choir but it will not play in the world. Let the fire burn on the inside or else it will be quickly extinguished. Derek and everyone else would do well to read Love Grove’s response to Derek it contains a lit of wisdom. Yes he is condescending but you can learn from what he says.
Posted 10/6/2007 3:10 PM by rebe1186″
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What makes you think seminary is not the real world. it is real for me. I go to school for 12 hrs a week, do the work, work in a library, and am youth minister at a church in town. To say my life expereince is not real saddens me. I am where God wants me to be and actually right now I live eight hours from my family and far from most of my friends. I am depending on God right now more than I ever have and he is teaching me (YES, God is teaching me) what it means to have faith and trust. I feel like I am in the wilderness with God as provider right now and you say its not real because why???? because its not your expereince? because thats not how you learned? I am trying to gain both the education and expereince to be able to be the best minister I can, so that God may bne glorified in my life – not so thatI can glorify myself.
sorry for any errors.. i just stayed up late writing a case study for my supervision in ministry class tommorow (obviously worth crap) but whatever.. lol. I am tired and have to get up early to live my “not real” life.
sorry for the sarcasm… I am just tired. Tired of living during this time when it seems I cannot please anyone… but I think Christ is happy with me, thats all that matter anyhow.
Grace and Peace,
Daniel (doubledb)
Daniel, I will post this here as well as message you. I want to clarify my words to you. It was an unfair choice of words I guess to say you had not lived in the real world. Of course you do. Like all of us here you have to do hard things every day. I know higher learning is tough. My thoughts in what I said lie in the struggles of 45 yrs. of my life as well as others. I believe you would agree that a minister in the Army in the middle of Tikrit, Iraq is a little bit tougher than a day as a minister in downtown Abilene, Tx right? Both have their individual challenges for sure. In my years that God has granted me on this Earth I have seen any number of young fire-breathers from all walks of life who are going to change the world in whatever their field of endeavor. It ain’t gonna happen! I know, you are different. You know things they didn’t. Your faith is stronger. People have told you God is all over you. You are special. You are anointed.
Work with a young man for years while he tells you what you want to hear. Go see him in the morgue. Be happy as the young girl is learning all about God from you. Take the call the she blew her brains out right after the youth pizza party. Watch as a very devoted Christian rots from cancer and wonder why, why did the teen who just shot and killed someone lies with minor injuries just down the hall. Sit next to a good friend, Christian father as he is arrested for sexually molesting his daughters. I could go on and on but I won’t.
Our race is a marathon son, not a sprint. This is what I mean by the real world. The one that wishes to destroy you and your faith at every turn. Many, many before you thought they were up for the challenge.
I pray that you are.
God bless you and all your endeavors,
k
I do not discount that others have experinces.. I think the problem I had is gadging expierence.. As if one holds more or less truth based on how bad or good their life is/was. I try to always look for different perspectives and hear evryones voice and let mine be heard as well… but every now and then I hear my voice being silenced for some reason; whether its because I am too young or single or not old enough or dont have expreince or go to seminary….. I think all people, no matter what they have or have not been though should be allowed to have an opinion
True, I may not have experiended what another has – but I have experiend my own things. And I can only be who I can be, who I am. I cannot gain 45 years of expierence in 5 seconds so my opinion is valid or not. That is where I am coming from.
I respect you and those experiences… but I wish my were respected as well – and thats what I get angry. But no harm done, I did not think anyone set out to be malicious, however, sometimes I just get annoyed. but all is good now.
Daniel (doubledb)
Wow! You guys rock in your considering of “what it means to truly be a Christian” (I know, I know: where should the tithe go?) You have all gone beyond the first question to consider around that question the idea of truth to the Gospel way, caring for the poor and needy, looking to others for wisdom, but coming back to what does the Bible teach. Great discussion. Thank you Derek, for being sensitive not just to the Word, but to godly wisdom.
I believe God wants to work through the church, and we do need to have a place to gather. But when that place of gathering, and paying a preacher to preach, takes more importance in our practice than reaching out in love to the neighbor, not just with the Gospel but in practical ways too, then we have lost our way. We as the Body of Christ must be sensitive to the leading of the Lord. He has gifted us with understanding, wisdom, power for a purpose. It is not that we might bless ourselves. It is that we might bless Him by serving those in the world the Truth, and serving the world, in serving our Lord with blessing and praise. We are always to be striving to know and do what God calls us to do. If that means pulling away from an apostate church congregation, then we do it. That might call for us to form a “house church.” In that though we need to keep some kind of accountability, checks and balances, so that we do not fall into error, doctrinally, ourselves. Always come back to the Word of God in its contextual entirety.
Blessings, AL